http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123007285
> Lockheed Martin originally contracted with the U.S. Marine Corps to
> build the STOVL variant of the F-35 to replace the aging AV-8B
> Harrier. The Air Force will take over the program in June, as part of
> the service’s commitment to improving close-air support.

Who ya gonna FARP with?

Will there be AF units attached to Army "flying columns" to setup ad hoc
Foward Area Refueling Points for Air Force F-35Bs alongside the Apaches?

Doesn't it make more sense to transfer Tac Air back to the Army so the
Generals can shuffle funds between helicopters and fixed wing CAS as needed?

-HJC

"Henry J Cobb" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123007285
> > Lockheed Martin originally contracted with the U.S. Marine Corps to
> > build the STOVL variant of the F-35 to replace the aging AV-8B
> > Harrier. The Air Force will take over the program in June, as part of
> > the service’s commitment to improving close-air support.
>
> Who ya gonna FARP with?
>
> Will there be AF units attached to Army "flying columns" to setup ad hoc
> Foward Area Refueling Points for Air Force F-35Bs alongside the Apaches?

FARPs are not your specialty, are they? If they want to do a FARP, they have
a number of options, just like those in the Army aviation community have a
number of options. Use of helos is one option, or use of helos in
combination with assets sent forward by ground transport, or indeed by
ground assets only. They could in some cases eben use C-130's operating from
a designated FLS. What, you think the USAF has nobody capable of driving a
truck? In most cases, though, you could expect them to set up a FOB (forward
operating base) instead of a FARP. The USMC manages to do this kind of
thing--why do you think it beyond the ability of the USAF and Army?

>
> Doesn't it make more sense to transfer Tac Air back to the Army so the
> Generals can shuffle funds between helicopters and fixed wing CAS as
needed?

No, it does not make sense, much less *more* sense. Which means that you are
shooting par, as usual. Think "joint", Henry.

Brooks

>
> -HJC
>

Kevin Brooks wrote:
> "Henry J Cobb" > wrote in message
> ...
>>Will there be AF units attached to Army "flying columns" to setup ad hoc
>>Foward Area Refueling Points for Air Force F-35Bs alongside the Apaches?
>
> FARPs are not your specialty, are they? If they want to do a FARP, they have
> a number of options, just like those in the Army aviation community have a
> number of options. Use of helos is one option, or use of helos in
> combination with assets sent forward by ground transport, or indeed by
> ground assets only. They could in some cases eben use C-130's operating from
> a designated FLS. What, you think the USAF has nobody capable of driving a
> truck? In most cases, though, you could expect them to set up a FOB (forward
> operating base) instead of a FARP. The USMC manages to do this kind of
> thing--why do you think it beyond the ability of the USAF and Army?

If you have to lay out a full landing strip for the C-130's why would
the AF need F-35Bs, couldn't they just use F-35As?

-HJC

"Henry J Cobb" > wrote in message
...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
> > "Henry J Cobb" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>Will there be AF units attached to Army "flying columns" to setup ad hoc
> >>Foward Area Refueling Points for Air Force F-35Bs alongside the Apaches?
> >
> > FARPs are not your specialty, are they? If they want to do a FARP, they
have
> > a number of options, just like those in the Army aviation community have
a
> > number of options. Use of helos is one option, or use of helos in
> > combination with assets sent forward by ground transport, or indeed by
> > ground assets only. They could in some cases eben use C-130's operating
from
> > a designated FLS. What, you think the USAF has nobody capable of driving
a
> > truck? In most cases, though, you could expect them to set up a FOB
(forward
> > operating base) instead of a FARP. The USMC manages to do this kind of
> > thing--why do you think it beyond the ability of the USAF and Army?
>
> If you have to lay out a full landing strip for the C-130's why would
> the AF need F-35Bs, couldn't they just use F-35As?

Holy crap, Henry--*FLS* does NOT mean "full landing strip". It is a
*forward* landing strip, using what is called the MOS (minimum operating
strip length) for that type of aircraft. care to hazard a guess as to the
difference between a MOS for a C-130 and one for a CTOL tactical fighter? A
section of straight road can be used for a C-130 FLS, or engineers can carve
one out in rather quick fashion (then usually termed an "assault strip",
usually with a dirt surface or at most a geotextile/geogrid--and no, you are
not operating F-35A's off of that, either).

You see what happens when you start second guessing and belittling what you
have absolutely no grasp of? When are you going to get off this kick that
you know more than the guys who wear the blue and green suits?

Brooks

>
> -HJC
>

"Henry J Cobb" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123007285
> > Lockheed Martin originally contracted with the U.S. Marine Corps to
> > build the STOVL variant of the F-35 to replace the aging AV-8B
> > Harrier. The Air Force will take over the program in June, as part of
> > the service’s commitment to improving close-air support.
>
> Who ya gonna FARP with?
>
> Will there be AF units attached to Army "flying columns" to setup ad hoc
> Foward Area Refueling Points for Air Force F-35Bs alongside the Apaches?
>

The doctrine of forward operating bases moving with the army
is scarcely new, all the air forces of WW2 did it. I'm not surprised
the USAF are interested in F-35B since the RAF were a customer from
the start.

Keith

"Kevin Brooks" wrote:

> If they want to do a FARP, they have
>a number of options

No expert I, but you should be able to use a LAPES style drop
(or rather, a bunch of them) to move a bunch of stuff in when setting
up a FARP. I imagine moving munitions that way is pretty hairy, but
it's probably workable in some fashion.




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Did lots of FARPS for 160th and the Air Force Spec Ops community in the MC.
Never did a LAPES drop, in fact we never did LAPES, period. I don't think
anyone in the TAC Lift community is even qualified anymore. Even back in
1991 in the U.A.E. waiting the first Gulf War I worked in the ALCC and we
were asked about airdrop quals, but nobody was qualified to do LAPES then,
at least in the wings I was controlling. We moved lots of MK-82's from
Masirah to points all around the peninsula.

Landing to offload munitions is the safest way.
--
Les
F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)


"John S. Shinal" > wrote in message
...
> "Kevin Brooks" wrote:
>
> > If they want to do a FARP, they have
> >a number of options
>
> No expert I, but you should be able to use a LAPES style drop
> (or rather, a bunch of them) to move a bunch of stuff in when setting
> up a FARP. I imagine moving munitions that way is pretty hairy, but
> it's probably workable in some fashion.
>
>
>
>
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News==----
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Newsgroups
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"Les Matheson" wrote:

Interesting stuff, Les. I recall someone bouncing a Herk doing
a LAPES drop near Ft. Bragg some years ago - I think during a CAPEX.
It made the evening news, and perhaps there was a shift away from it
after that.



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>"Les Matheson" wrote:
>
> Interesting stuff, Les. I recall someone bouncing a Herk doing
>a LAPES drop near Ft. Bragg some years ago - I think during a CAPEX.
>It made the evening news, and perhaps there was a shift away from it
>after that.

Early to mid 80s, and I think the vehicle it was dropping got stuck in the
back. I remember seeing footage of it..Was it possibly at an airshow too??


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Les Matheson" wrote:
> >
> > Interesting stuff, Les. I recall someone bouncing a Herk doing
> >a LAPES drop near Ft. Bragg some years ago - I think during a CAPEX.
> >It made the evening news, and perhaps there was a shift away from it
> >after that.
>
> Early to mid 80s, and I think the vehicle it was dropping got stuck in the
> back. I remember seeing footage of it..Was it possibly at an airshow
too??

No, it was during a CAPEX; the USAF used to do a LAPES demonstration every
summer during the Advanced ROTC Camp held at Bragg as part of the
joint/combined arms CAPEX (included CAS from A-10's using Mk 82's and 30mm,
attack helos firing about everything they could lug, heavy and troop
paradrops, 155mm and 105mm arty (with the latter brought in as slung loads
under UH-60's), tank and IFV engagement of targets downrange, mortar and
Dragon (now Javelin, I guess) engagements, and a light infantry LFX
culminating in sappers breaching an obstacle and demo'ing a bunker. I don't
recall anything about the load getting stuck--it was apparently and
unfortunately a case of pilot/crew error due to misreading their descent and
flare altitude. If you watch the video of the crash you can see they
pancaked in quite hard (flexure of the aircraft structure allows you to see
daylight through the upper fuselage as it strikes), bounced back up as if it
was going to make it back up, and then comes back down and fireballs.

Brooks

>
>
> Ron
> Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
>

The Ft. Bragg/Pope AFB accident was a case of practicing the maneuver the
day before with an empty airplane, and a comment made to the pilot
afterwards that he was mot aggressive enough in the practice. Typical case
of "Hey guys, you want aggressive, watch this.."

--
Les
F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)




"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >"Les Matheson" wrote:
> > >
> > > Interesting stuff, Les. I recall someone bouncing a Herk doing
> > >a LAPES drop near Ft. Bragg some years ago - I think during a CAPEX.
> > >It made the evening news, and perhaps there was a shift away from it
> > >after that.
> >
> > Early to mid 80s, and I think the vehicle it was dropping got stuck in
the
> > back. I remember seeing footage of it..Was it possibly at an airshow
> too??
>
> No, it was during a CAPEX; the USAF used to do a LAPES demonstration every
> summer during the Advanced ROTC Camp held at Bragg as part of the
> joint/combined arms CAPEX (included CAS from A-10's using Mk 82's and
30mm,
> attack helos firing about everything they could lug, heavy and troop
> paradrops, 155mm and 105mm arty (with the latter brought in as slung loads
> under UH-60's), tank and IFV engagement of targets downrange, mortar and
> Dragon (now Javelin, I guess) engagements, and a light infantry LFX
> culminating in sappers breaching an obstacle and demo'ing a bunker. I
don't
> recall anything about the load getting stuck--it was apparently and
> unfortunately a case of pilot/crew error due to misreading their descent
and
> flare altitude. If you watch the video of the crash you can see they
> pancaked in quite hard (flexure of the aircraft structure allows you to
see
> daylight through the upper fuselage as it strikes), bounced back up as if
it
> was going to make it back up, and then comes back down and fireballs.
>
> Brooks
>
> >
> >
> > Ron
> > Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
> >
>
>

"Les Matheson" > wrote:

>The Ft. Bragg/Pope AFB accident was a case of practicing the maneuver the
>day before with an empty airplane, and a comment made to the pilot
>afterwards that he was mot aggressive enough in the practice. Typical case
>of "Hey guys, you want aggressive, watch this.."

Wasn't there something to do with practicing on a wide
runway/strip then doing the dirty on a narrow one?. Visual
perception would make you think that you were higher than you
actually were?...or am I thinking of another incident?. I believe
the RCAF had a LAPES accident too, don't recall much of it.
--

-Gord.